Everything Everywhere - Latest Comments in Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Dobbs — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:50:33 -0000

Here is a comment for the travel writers reading this.

I really believe travel writers instead of trying to disparage new media it should be embracing technology like the Kindle. It is important to remember that the Kindle will not put guidebook writers out of a job. The facts of the matter is that due to the nature of paper guidebooks, they are often out of date and impossible to update without reprinting an entire book.

On the Kindle any updates of the books can be done instantly because of the digital format of the book. Theoretically no travel guidebook should be out of date when someone purchases it on the Kindle if the guidebook company is continuously updating their digital copy of the book.

I fail to see how this new media is a threat to travel writers. This new media will in fact allow you to provide more up to date content to readers for cheaper prices. I have written more about this on my site, but I would like to hear travel writers' opinions on the Kindle.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

workrobot — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:15:16 -0000

sorry Gary, one final thing here. You said:

getting information online is better, cheaper, and more convenient than what you will find in a book.

If this were true, guidebook publishers would not spend the time and money sending researchers to physically visit places. They'd just have teams of people scouring the web.

And BTW, the only research on Colombia that Thomas Kohnstamm did was the research for the history section. You should know that. He didn't actually need to be there. All the rest is media hype.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

workrobot — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 13:28:37 -0000

1) Gary - my name is Richard Arghiris.

2) I'm not suggesting I'm more authoratative than you, only more authoratative than most people who post hotel reviews on websites. I've visited thousands of hotels and restaurants during my career and I've also read tons of books on my subject. I have also been travelling most of my life, for the record. So, I have training and experience.

3) Apologies for the getting lost comment. I put a lot of love and hard work into my writing and I feel slightly insulted when you suggest that we guidebook writers simply knock together our listings from telephone books and other random sources. I take the time to visit all the hotels, check the rooms, prices and services, and also talk to the owners. I also make a lot of enquiries to get the best restaurants and tour operators too, which I also visit in person. I accept that there are bad guidebook writers who do a bad job with this, but many of us also take our work seriously.

I'm glad you do not have your head buried in a guidebook. People shouldn't take guidebooks as gospel, but use them as inspiration and a tool to aid independent explorations. I'd hate to think people were following them to the letter - which I know some people do, particularly a certain kind of LP reader.

Also for the record, I am not 'old guard'. I've done a lot of work with new media but I think you're deluded if you believe the electronic format is somehow going to supersede the paper guidebook. This is because technology fails - particularly with the robust lifestyle of travellers - and shiny gadgets attract the eyes of thieves. A book is solid and dependable. And usually written by people who know how to write.

One final thing, if I was interested in money, I'd be doing something else. I do this job only because I love it - because I love writing and I love travelling. I don't care if people do or don't spend money on guidebooks. I don't make any profit from in any case. The only thing I want is for people to be inspired, informed and connected to the countries they visit. There's nothing worse than a traveller who doesn't appreciate the cultures and people of the land they're in. For that reason, I want to share my experience, love and knowledge.

Cheers.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 01:53:12 -0000

1) if you are truly authoritative, leave your name.

2) Why are you more authoritative than me? Because someone pays you? I've been traveling almost 2 years.

3) I've never gotten lost. I have my head up and not buried in a guidebook.

Just like the recording industry, TV, newspapers, I don't expect the old guard to go down without a fight. People with a vested monetary interest in getting everyone to spend money on guidebooks will always make these claims.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

workrobot — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 00:01:08 -0000

Interesting discussion. I write guidebooks for a living and I'm very passionate about the places I write about. I think you are doing a disservice to people like me who work hard to bring you decent and authoratative writing. The internet is full of garbage written by people who don't know good from bad, let alone how to write. Like any other guidebook author, I've seen thousands of hotels and restaurants in my time and I know the difference. And if you think Wikipedia is an authorative source of history and culture then you're sadly mistaken. I think this try-hard snobbery and nothing else. Don't cry when you get lost!

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Mickie — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:45:50 -0000

A large portion of Africa, China, central Asia, nevermind russian keyboards.

Mobile browsing is expensive, even with local sims. And not so fast nor easy. Take out the notebook to jot all down. (your should see my guidebook cover)

Internet cafes - Well again, jotting down all the info, printing maps etc takes time and money. Having a guide book there is a great reference. Yes I use Hostel . coms and searches for my hotels hostels etc as once in the guide book they are only good for inflated prices, the mob en masse.

I am with Two Crabs on this one. Thorn Tree has been a life saver. New info is great if read correctly. I jot it down in my guide book and I am gone.

But out in reality I like to have something in paper in case the lights go out, which they quite often do in the places I mentions. Least of all if my laptop/PDA/Phone went pop! And I couldn't afford or did not have access to a new one.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:40:02 -0000

While I haven't been everywhere (yet), I have been to some pretty remote places. I have yet to find a country without internet access or a mobile phone system. In fact, mobile phones are the fastest industry in most developing countries throughout Africa. I saw companies like Digicell all over the Pacific including Samoa, the Solomon Islands and Papua New Guiena. I was able to get online in every country I've visited (which honestly, has surprised me)

Yes, there are rural areas without any of those things, and you can find them in developing countries as well. That doesn't mean you should default to Lonely Planet, it just means you need to compile your research before you go there. I expect guidebook information to be the most up to date for heavily populated tourist locations like Paris, London or New York. I expect it to be the most out of date for exactly the places you mention: remote out of the way, infrequently visited places. The type that there have little demand for guidebooks, and hence, little investment in their research.

We will always have guidebooks, I don't deny that. We still have AM radio. But like newspapers, magazines and other old media, its influence going to diminish and the business will fundamentally have to change.

How information is compiled may move to user created content, or information sharing deals with flight/hotel and other websites. The notion of sending someone to a different country might get replaces by just finding a person in that community to compile the information. Information might be available for the iPhone or Kindle, or some yet unknown device.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Two Crabs — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:20:41 -0000

Well, this is quite an interesting conversation. I, too, am a Lonely Planet guidebook author. And I actually agree with some of what you wrote. But as a veteran of traveling, living or working in 53 countries, I wholeheartedly disagree with you that the era of the guidebook is over. To all these people who are claiming you can get buy with just the Internet, iPhones, and Blackberry's, I ask: what happens when you go to a country that has no cell/mobile phone system? Folks who have only traveled to the safe confines of North America, Western Europe and Australia may be shocked -- SHOCKED -- to discover that many countries have no mobile phone network, or access may be spotty at best. In places like Northern Iraq, there is cell phone service but access is prohibitively expensive. I have also been to places where nobody has ever even HEARD of the Internet. What do you do then? Even in Europe, why would I want to spend time and money in an internet cafe when the basic information is readily available at my fingertips? I concur that information is often outdated in guidebooks; one of the dirty secrets of guidebook publishing is that information is 6-12 months old by the time the book hits the shelves. That's why many companies like Lonely Planet have online compendiums where we post updated information for the book. Information from readers and locals posted on our Thorn Tree forum has been priceless for my pre-trip research. When I travel for fun, I do it both ways: I take the most current guidebook, but also do some online research before I go to get the updated info. There are also days when I say guidebook-be-damned, shove it in the rucksack and wander aimlessly for fun. But for the most part, I do not enjoy being lost or uninformed. But hey that's me. Guidebooks and online travel research can and do co-exist. Bottom line: guidebooks are here to stay.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

wandermom — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 23:42:54 -0000

I can see my kids backpacking with nothing but the latest version of an iphone or blackberry (in 2020). The won't bother with guidebooks, because all the data they'll need will be available online. They won't get lost (ever) because they'll have GPS.

I'll still probably buy guidebooks because I need to take a break from my computer. When you spend all day long in front of a screen, it's nice to sit on the sofa with a book.
But I've found that for our last few trips, I use guidebooks for research and ideas and I cross-reference everything with online sources.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

A. Wannabe Travelwriter — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 04:01:58 -0000

Wow. And I thought the topic of travel writing and guidebooks was quieting down.

If you have the aptitude and hours to spend; online; in cyber-cafés; programming, charging, and figuring out iPods and Kindles that is great. Good for you.

I may be guilty of stereotyping, but it seems there is a reoccuring theme of rather young, techie-travelers with backpacks looking for the best hostel to bed down.

There are many people who have neither the savvy nor desire to plan their trips utilizing those very legitimate tools of travel. So lighten up.

Whether it is snobbery or not, you do come off as being very judgmental and somewhat narrow-minded as to demographics of the thousands of people who travel.

A couple of points: First, I think if you find a guidebook with a "travel philosophy" you can relate to, then it's worth the money. On trips to Europe, my wife and I have greatly benefited from the information from Rick Steve's, and can rely on the recommendations.

And we have been impressed with the honestly of books like Maui Revealed. The reviews were just that; and not just lists of restaurants and lodging.

The challenge is to find guidebooks you are comfortable with for new areas of adventure.

Also, I have a question. As a wannabe travelwriter, I am intrigued by the evolving paradigm of printed media. Everyone seems to want free online information in lieu of traditional books, magazines and newspapers. If no one is willing to pay for that information, why will writers continue to expend the effort?

And please don't tell me that rambling blog posts on thousands of travel websites will serve the same purpose.

While I may be old, I am not exactly a dinosaur when it comes to understanding the tubes that make up the internets. And I do spend considerable time using all the travel tools available. But, like I said earlier…lighten up.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Dobbs — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 23:46:07 -0000

I used to carry guidebooks as well when traveling until I bought an Amazon Kindle. There are guidebooks available for download onto the Kindle which are still in their infancy but I fully expect them to improve as the Kindle gets more popular.

Also with the Kindle you can email documents, PDF, etc. to Amazon and they will convert and send the file wirelessly to the Kindle since it also has wireless internet. So whatever information you get online you upload into the Kindle for use when you travel. I have uploaded an entire PDF version of a guidebook onto my Kindle with no problems.

Gary brings up a very good point about the weight of books when traveling. If you are traveling through multiple countries the guidebooks add up on top of whatever other reading material you are bringing with you. The Kindle has eliminated me bringing any books and most magazines on a trip. The Kindle is in its infancy but I really think this may be the wave of the future for not only books but travelers as well.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:44:51 -0000

Fair enough. I didn't think that would really be controversial because no guidebook claims to do that.

1) Logically, it is impossible, not to mention prohibitively expensive, to stay in every hostel and hotel and B&B in a country, eat in every restaurant and diner, and go to every tourist attraction. My guess is that in any mid-sized US city (Cedar Rapids, Iowa for example) it would take a few weeks to stay one night in every hotel. There are probably 30 guest houses within 4 blocks of where I'm writing this in Saigon. That would be a month to cover a single neighborhood.

2) I've met guidebook writers on the road. They are there to gather information and are on a limited budget. They usually stay in cheap places to stretch their budget, and then scour the phone books, local tourist bureaus, and brochures to collect information. When guidebooks like Lonely Planet group hotels together, they do so by listed price, not by "stars" like the Michelin guide does. The listing aren't reviews, they at best are descriptions.

3) Do some Google searches on Thomas Kohnstamm. He is the Lonely Planet guidebook writer who wrote a book on his experiences. He did research on Colombia from the US. You'll find a lot of guidebook writers talking about the process of guidebook writing. Nowhere did I ever read of a guidebook attempting to review everything they publish. They don't publish reviews. They don't claim to publish reviews. Here is an interview with a LP writer: http://travelhappy.info/travel-writing/how-to-b...

The money quote is:

"It's a good job but let's be realistic: it's more a case of being paid to collect brochures and bus timetable info -- and to crack the ice-cold nerve of concierges the world over. We are info dumps: much of the job is gathering facts and figures and updating perishable and non-perishable information."

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:31:18 -0000

No. I have breakfast and check email in the morning. I don't like to think I "have" to go sightseeing.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Georgia — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:30:44 -0000

Gary, you say: "Guidebooks are not reviews. Guidebook authors do not visit the vast majority of restaurants, hotels, and attractions they write about."

Really? Says who? I'd like to know what your sources are for that assertion. Thanks.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Dongphuvieng — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:14:01 -0000

Gary, it's 9am in Vietnam, shouldn't you be out doing some things or going to some places?

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:54:47 -0000

If it was that difficult to find information online, then I'd use a guidebook. It doesn't take hours and hours. The process is very quick. Furthermore, much of what mention isn't done online, it is done by asking people or reading a brochure.

I really don't get the whole "cool" and "snob" thing either. I can't ever recall having a conversation about guidebooks. If something makes you cool, it is things you've done and places you've been, not a book you do or do not carry around.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Dongphuvieng — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:40:03 -0000

Almost every post here mentions how expensive guidebooks are, and how using the net you can save money. But I wonder, is the cost of a guidebook really so prohibitive that it's worth all the hours online, both at home and while on the road, that could otherwise be spent actually seeing a place, meeting the locals, talking with other travellers?

While I don't agree that everything in a guidebook is also available online (if you want examples, I have plenty), let's for arguments' sake say that it is.

So for country X you can spend dozens of hours online, take lots of notes, try to decide which version of truth you believe, print out loads of maps and pages, and spend hours organising it into either physical or electronic files so it's reasonably near to hand while you're on the road. Then, when you do actually get on the plane and begin your trip/holiday, you can spend more time (not to mention money) sitting in an internet cafe to check if the opening hours have changed, or the price has gone up, or trying to work out where exactly is that restaurant you read about on that site you can't remember.

I would be the first to say that guidebooks are not perfect. Far from it. And I often advise people to close their guidebook and open their eyes. But all the same, I'm comfortable enough with myself that I can open a guidebook when it's useful without feeling like I've somehow joined the uncool club or must, as Gary puts it, 'just fit in to be acceptable to other travelers'.

I wonder, is the time, effort and money you spend (almost certainly more than the $20-25 of an average guidebook) really worth it just so you can feel cool and counter culture? I guess that depends on who you are.

Gary said:
If i have to pick between snobbery and buying something just to fit in to be acceptable to other travelers, then I'll go with snob.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Leif Pettersen — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:24:32 -0000

I have finally posted my retort: http://killingbatteries.com/2008/11/dont-leave-...

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Caitlin — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 11:11:40 -0000

I think that it is really great that travelers can post their experiences online and help inform others of the best decisions to make when traveling. It's hard to know what to expect when arriving in a new place even with the aid of travel guides. Talking to others and learning about their experiences is the best way to go.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

saraht43 — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:03:45 -0000

I agree I book my vaction (hotels/rental cars etc) online. I also get mapquest directions and"guidebook" type info online as well. Great article.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Francoise — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:59:52 -0000

I agree with you 99%, though I feel that guidebooks still have their place and purpose, just like info from the internet.

For the first time or nervous traveler, and for some countries, with little or no tourism infrastructure guidebooks can be useful. I've often left mine with nervous family members back home, so they could read up on where I was going and follow along. I've used a guidebook as much for recommendations as for tips on what to avoid.

I disagree with the premise that knowing the source adds credibility. Information can still be dated and inaccurate even if the Pope authored LP's guide to the Vatican. All guidebook's have extensive disclaimers which kind of negates any expectation that they take full responsibility for the information they publish ("trust us, but don't blame us!"). It's no better or worse than travel information taken from the internet.

Like you and other posters mentioned, once on the ground, my #1 source of information are other travelers and locals. It doesn't get more up-to-date than that.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

cchiovitti — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:19:25 -0000

Not necessary, no. But, on my very first trip to London, I picked up a travel guide before I went and it was very useful. Even though I'm very confident there now after several trips, I still tuck it in my bags. A well organized and easily toted book can be a great asset, especially for people who don't roam around the city with a laptop or blackberry. It's easy to pull out to find the closest family-friendly restaurant or the nearest tube stop to a site. Plus, even with all of the amazing amount of information available now online, the book did inform me of several cool places that I don't think I would have discovered any other way. After almost 11 years, I think I've got my 15 dollars or so out of it.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

Barbara Hudgins — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:39:54 -0000

Hi, I'm Barbara Hudgins, author of "Crafting the Travel Guidebook." Yes, certain types of guidebooks will always exist. The problem is that every nomadic, globe-trotting backpacker thinks he's the perfect person to be the Lonely Planet updater. Maybe that type of guidebook will dwindle. The types that will remain are:

1. Really local guidebooks. No big publisher is going to bother with Mystic, Conn, but there's a little guide you can find in every store there that is quite reasonable.

2. How-to-do-its: Whether it's how to exchange homes across continents, how to pack your suitcase expertly, how to wheedle the best rates at the loca hostelries, how to find low season fares, these books offer tricks of the trade.

3. Special audience/special interest books. Art lovers guide to London, monasteries that provide lodging, the best wedding destinations (and how to book them), the wine-lovers guide to Tuscany, the Black guide to New Orleans, etc.

4. Travel memoirs. Unfortunately there are too many writers in this field, but when they are filled with great writing, or coupled with a transformational theme (like eat, pray, love) they will sell.

Anyway, I go over a lot of this stuff in my book. check out www.woodmontpress.com

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:44:14 -0000

I've stated in the past that my favorite travel item is my iPod Touch. I'd be more than willing to access data from my iPod Touch (and when I have wifi access, I often do). I have downloaded web pages to view offline later.

Many of the problems I have with guidebooks could be eliminated by moving to digital publication. If I could put an up to date version of a guidebook on my iPod, I'd strongly consider it.

If anyone ever topples Lonely Planets, it will be by offering an alternative to the paper guidebook.

Re: Step Away From the Lonely Planet: A Requiem for Travel Guidebooks

CaesarRomanus — Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:36:46 -0000

You have a point. I've described guidebooks as the travel equivalent of the 1975 Sears Christmas Wishbook.